Dean Karnazes: Pursuing The Ultimate Runners High

Get ready to be inspired as we have an enlightening conversation with none other than Dean Karnazes, ultra marathon author and athlete extraordinaire. We delve into his fascinating journey from a child who loved running to a successful businessman who did not run at all, and then the life changing moment on his 30th birthday that changed his career and life. Imagine the mental discipline necessary to endure long races, let alone running an astonishing 350 miles in 80 hours and 44 minutes without sleep - Dean shares how he managed this feat and the personal growth it triggered.

As if that's not enough, we pull back the curtain on the intriguing concept of running 500 miles and the secret to falling asleep while running. Ever wondered how it feels to run 50 marathons in 50 states in 50 days? Dean gives us the inside scoop, and we also discuss the potential of the lactate dehydrinase syndrome. Alongside, we take the opportunity to draw parallels between writing and distance running – a fascinating look at how the lessons learned from running can transfer to life.

Wrapping up, we touch upon Dean's proudest moment - running a 10K with his daughter on her 10th birthday, and the unusual challenge of running for 24 hours on a treadmill hoisted in the air in the middle of Times Square. We also get into his new role as ambassador for Greek tourism and how he started his running tour company, Greek Running Tours. From his understanding of the weight loss journey to his admiration for his mentor, Jeff Galloway, Dean's take on living a life of grace and being the best one can be is sure to leave you inspired. So, tune in for a dose of motivation, inspiration, and intriguing insights.

Transcript

John Pelkey: 0:04

Welcome to 321 Go the Podcast. I'm John Pelkey.

Carissa Galloway: 0:08

And I'm Carissa Galloway, and we're bringing you stories from start to finish to keep the everyday athlete motivated to keep moving towards the next finish.

John Pelkey: 0:18

Carissa. We have a very, very special show today Ultra Marathon. Are an author, dean Karnazes, and that does not do him justice, just calling him those things. He'll join us to discuss his incredible life in career.

Carissa Galloway: 0:29

Yes, and we're also going to talk about why weight loss is hard, because if you've tried, you know that it's hard. We're going to open the mailbag and learn about races that we love that don't start at Disney, and we're going to talk about how you can help fellow run Disney athletes, maybe with their first race. And to all of you, thank you for listening. Please keep subscribing, rate us, leave a review and tell your friends let's do this.

John Pelkey: 1:06

We had so much fun with Dean. We're going to do this episode a little differently, so right now we're going to jump into the mailbag. Sarge Athletes, listen up. It's mail call time. Announce her free Present. Thank you, sarge. Always appreciate you. Here is our question for today. In the mailbag, this comes from MB runs the castle. That's her Instagram handle and it is what is your favorite non Disney race weekend? Now you have many more to choose from than I do. You post more races than I do.

Carissa Galloway: 1:40

Well, that was what I didn't know, was the question what's my favorite to participate in or what's my favorite to announce?

John Pelkey: 1:47

I, you could go with both.

Carissa Galloway: 1:48

And you could actually just say a race weekend that you've never been to and will it to be your favorite.

John Pelkey: 1:52

Wow, All right. The Disneyland Paris half marathon.

Carissa Galloway: 1:58

Shanghai Disney weekend. Thank you Good. Okay, I think I thought about this a little bit and I think that I didn't want to say races that we've talked. We've talked a lot about Boston, we've talked about the race at an Amsterdam. When I think about the races that I enjoy going to that are outside of Disney, I'm laughing, and Western is our producer who's listening in. My husband will laugh at this. The races I like best are the one where I can walk from the hotel to the start. I don't really care where we are and what it is, but I real that really makes me happy here and now.

John Pelkey: 2:38

Most people are like, oh, she's a bit of a dandy. That's that's what people are thinking. But I will say I was going to say that my favorite for any number of reasons is St Pete Runfest, and I can walk from my hotel to the start line. It is part of why it's it's so enjoyable.

Carissa Galloway: 2:56

And especially so when we do an Iron man day, which starts for me at 4am and goes until after midnight. If I can take the 45 minute break that we get maybe twice a day, walk back to my room, you know, put my feet up. Sometimes I take a shower. It makes a huge difference in it, but I think someone I was thinking about that question. That's kind of why that came to mind. I think that if family is there or if I have friends, I know run the race. So I think, much like run Disney, my favorite non Disney races are the ones where there's great people and then a five star hotel within a two block radius that I have a nice robot with I will take five star.

Carissa Galloway: 3:29

I'm just kidding, that was a joke Because, look, my co-host, andrea, is listening. We stayed in a hotel recently that I won't say where that was Luckily if it had seen a star ever in its life, but it was fine. It had actual ice buckets, like the buckets, the plastic buckets for ice, but still. And then I said at one hotel that did not even have a USB ports and I made them bring me an extension cord because my phone was going to be sitting on the floor.

John Pelkey: 3:54

I think I mentioned this once before I did. I did an event for Universal once where they didn't have any rooms, even though the rooms were booked weeks in advance. And everyone that I was traveling with got a room except me and they put me in a meeting room and it had. It had a big screen TV, and that was back when that was not necessarily the thing you would find a lot. But there's no bed, there was just a pull out couch, so I had to sleep on the pull out couch, so it was good and bad.

John Pelkey: 4:25

Did you have?

Carissa Galloway: 4:25

your own? Did you have your own bathroom?

John Pelkey: 4:27

No, it did.

Carissa Galloway: 4:27

It had a bathroom.

John Pelkey: 4:28

It was like a two room suite, but it was. You know, it just wasn't a, it wasn't a bedroom.

Carissa Galloway: 4:32

Yeah well, that's my quote, my unofficial answer.

John Pelkey: 4:35

Well, wherever there's a, wherever there's close hotels, five star. I'm just kidding about the five star.

Carissa Galloway: 4:40

We're doing a lot of blue sky thinking. Five star Shanghai sweet.

John Pelkey: 4:45

Tokyo Disney sweet private jet Just throwing your Costa. Okay, just, we're just saying words. I love.

Carissa Galloway: 4:51

I love lamp, john, your answer.

John Pelkey: 4:55

No say people run fast for me, just because it was kind of the first race that outside of Disney that brought me in as an announcer, just me. It was just me for a while and I now it's my wife and myself and it's just, it's just a great one in November. The weather is lovely, you're on the water, it's just got a lot of things going for it's very, very fun race. I will always advocate for those folks and they actually post our new one, our new episodes pop up, so they're the last thing I'll say about that is when you said St Pete, run fast.

Carissa Galloway: 5:27

it made me think about this. When I go to a race where the organizers are kind yeah, people who work there are kind it makes me want to like. It makes it more like a set of family events.

Carissa Galloway: 5:36

So you have that relationship with the St Pete run fast. I have that relationship with other races across the country. Those are ones that I look forward to, because it's like a little mini reunion. So thank you all the race organizers that are kind to us. I'm not saying that he was not, nobody's really not, you know who you are. But, like you, just connect with certain people.

John Pelkey: 5:56

Just just leave that out there. We should do that end of every episode. Leave something out where people are like who are they talking about? Remember when you worked with that one guy and he did that thing? Man, don't want to work with him again.

Carissa Galloway: 6:09

And the hotel was you know where.

John Pelkey: 6:10

Oh yeah. So, people actually stay here. Just throw it.

Carissa Galloway: 6:17

That's it We'll leave it with a little cliffhanger.

Dean Karnazes: 6:19

Little cliffhanger at the end.

John Pelkey: 6:20

Hey, if you're dreaming of discovering New Horizons or have a Disney trip coming up, don't let all the travel planning overwhelm you. Let Katie McBride with Travelmation, take care of everything for you. That sounds fabulous.

Carissa Galloway: 6:33

Yeah, I have a huge advocate about using a travel agent because they save you time, it's stress free planning and you're getting access to exclusive discounts, which is what we want. And Katie really has the knack for swiftly sorting through options, presenting you with the best choices that align with your budget and your desire. So if you're ready to turn your travel dreams into reality, contact Katie today and embark on a journey filled with seamless experiences and those unforgettable moments.

John Pelkey: 7:00

That's right. You can reach out to Katie. Her web address is wwwtravelkateymcbridecom and have a wonderful trip. We should all be traveling. Let's get out there people, See and do new things.

Dean Karnazes: 7:16

Okay, civilians, it's time for the goods. Let's get on to the interview.

John Pelkey: 7:22

Our guest today is a celebrated ultramarathoner and author. Now his athletic achievements Carissa, are far too numerous to mention. Here's a couple it ran 350 miles and 80 hours and 44 minutes without sleep. Ran a marathon in the South Pole in negative 13 degree Fahrenheit and I'll get to the bottom of that too, because I think with Windchill it was probably colder than that and running a marathon in each of the 50 states in 50 consecutive days. Is the author of five books, including New York Times bestseller Ultramarathon man and his latest, a Runner's Eye, my Life in Motion, which was released in 2021. Named by Time Magazine, is one of the 100 most influential people in the world. He's also an Espey Award winner for best outdoor athlete and I'm out of breath. Welcome to 321 Go, dean Karnassus.

Dean Karnazes: 8:13

I'm exhausted before we even start the interview.

Carissa Galloway: 8:16

Well, that's great because I'm inspired. I'm excited by all the things that we get to dive into a little bit more. We have a lot of ground to cover. Dean, let's go back way back, because your love of running started early, and rumor has it that you started organizing running events with friends while in third grade, which is coincidentally where my daughter is, and she hasn't organized any running events. I'm a little concerned now, but, dean, what drew you to running at such an early age?

Dean Karnazes: 8:46

It goes back even further. I started running home from kindergarten when I was five.

Carissa Galloway: 8:49

Kenyan style right Uphill both ways.

Dean Karnazes: 8:54

I mean, it was LA, so it was relatively flat, relatively cool.

John Pelkey: 8:58

But you were dealing with the smog.

Dean Karnazes: 8:59

back then, dean, you were dealing with smog, and I wasn't at 10,000 feet either, at the sea level at least. But no, actually LA is a beautiful place to spend my formative years because the smog wasn't quite so bad. I don't want to date myself, but it was a long time ago and thankfully it was in an era where a kid, a five-year-old, could run home. It was about a mile from my school to my house and it was in an era when a kid could do that safely. My parents were somewhat liberal, ie they were complete hippies.

Carissa Galloway: 9:32

That's where that was going.

Dean Karnazes: 9:34

Yeah, I'm going to run home from school. They said, oh, that's fine, I won't have to pick you up then. And I just found that I loved running. I couldn't sit still in class. We tell young boys and girls to sit still and pay attention, and all a young child wants to do is go run wild and not pay attention. So I remember just having this mental discipline just wait for the bell to ring. Wait for the bell to ring. And then, when it did, I was out of there, I was free and I just started relating to the world through running. The sensations of the air on my skin, the changing color of the leaves with the seasons everything Sitting in class was having a teacher tell you how the world works. Running was like seeing it firsthand. So my passion for that kept going into third grade, where I became a conniving entrepreneur. You're trying to figure out how I could get enough money to buy more fireworks for 4th of July and organizing running events seemed a good way.

John Pelkey: 10:36

Well, and you now? You kept up with this running and through junior high school and into high school, but then your story and I hope I'm right with all of this is you essentially quit running for about 15 years. You're a very successful businessman in San Francisco who also admitted that at that time, as successful as you were, you were really, really unhappy and a run really changed your life. So can you take us through to that and explain how all of this started really with a 30 mile run?

Dean Karnazes: 12:24

Yeah, no, you're right. I mean I. We won the cross-country championships when I was a freshman in high school. I was 15. I thought this is as far as I'll ever take my running career, you know. End it now. Plus, running was kind of like running is boring. Come on, let's be honest, dean, you've got better ways to waste your time than you know spending hours running. So I stopped running at 15.

Dean Karnazes: 12:44

I somehow graduated high school, somehow got into college, somehow got into graduate school after college, then somehow got an MBA. And you're right, I had a very comfortable corporate job in San Francisco, you know, with all the perks of a good job. I mean, I was 30 years old. I had stock options, I had a company car, you know. I had a fat paycheck, bonuses, 401k, matching, you know, free healthcare, you know all the things.

Dean Karnazes: 13:10

And on the night of my 30th birthday, my friends took me out and we were in a bar doing what a lot of people do on their 30th birthday. I was getting drunk, you know. Around midnight I said I'm leaving and they said where are you going? Come on, the night is young, let's have another round at tequila to celebrate your 30th birthday. And I said, no, I'm going to run 30 miles to celebrate instead. And they looked at me and they said but you're not a runner, you're drunk. And I said I am, but I'm still going to do it. And I walked out of the bar and I'll never forget. I didn't even own running gear at the time, but I had on these comfortable silk boxer shorts, like the silk underwear. So I peeled off my pants and threw them down the alleyway and just started stumbling into the night, heading south, knowing that a town called Half Moon Bay was 30 miles away. And I said you know what? Just run to Half Moon Bay run. And that night forever changed the course of my life.

John Pelkey: 14:04

Well, and for the record, if I put that in a movie script it would be turned out people would be like, no, come on, that's just that's ridiculous. He did not go down to his silk boxers and make that run so just to follow up with that. It was part of that feeling just the fact that you know you'd been attracted to running so early that it was just this thing that you were like you're not a runner, I mean, you're like no. Dormant in my soul. That is exactly what I am.

Dean Karnazes: 14:30

No, it's more like bad tequila. Oh okay, no, no. How did that bell curve go during that 30 mile run?

Carissa Galloway: 14:37

Like when did the tequila wear off?

Dean Karnazes: 14:39

Or you were like oh, no, I mean you both asked great questions and and John, you're right, I mean I was. I was so discontent with my. I mean I had a major midlife crisis at 30. I was so miserable and I was so comfortable, and I was so miserable, being comfortable, that I had to do something. And I just remember how running was a struggle. It was hard, it was difficult, it was not, you know, it wasn't something that came easy. And I wanted that struggle back in my life and that you know that pain and that perseverance of pushing through it. So I think all of those things just manifested. You know I'm Greek and I'll go back to the Oracle at Delphi. You know, know thyself and then be thyself.

Dean Karnazes: 15:26

I knew who I was, but I wasn't being myself. I hated being a business guy. I was like a creature that wanted to get out of the corporate world. And it manifested as a run. And wow, carissa, to your point, 10 miles in, when the tequila started wearing off, I thought what, what the hell am I doing? This is the most insane, crazy, stupid thing you could be doing. But I don't know. I looked up and I I saw the stars and I saw the heavens and it for the first. It was the strangest feeling. It was as though I was where I was supposed to be at that moment in time. This is where God put you on earth. Keep going. It just seems so natural. So I just kept kept going.

Carissa Galloway: 16:11

Oh, that's amazing. There's such a great, great story there. And what you were saying about you know the discomfort in the grind. You know we we worked with a lot of athletes that do run Disney and that's their first race and I think for them there's that magic of Disney that draws them, but there's also that fear of like I'm stuck, I don't push myself out, can I do this? Can I get to that discomfort? And in that discomfort and that fear I think a lot of us find motivation to do other things in our life that were possibly holding us back. And then also, when you told that story, I just saw Will Ferrell in old school running out of the building. We're going straight in. Come on, guys. Did anybody come with you? Or did you know what everyone was like? No hard pass on the 30 mile tequila ride.

John Pelkey: 16:50

Did they even drive along? Did somebody follow along just to see that you're okay? Or do your friends are just like? No, there's, there's, there's some more tequila coming. We're going to hang.

Dean Karnazes: 16:59

No, I mean, I told them I was going to the bathroom and I literally walked past the bathroom into the kitchen and you know people are looking at me with the hell's this guy doing here, and but they, I just kind of waved and walked to the tradesman's alley exit you know where they bring in all the things on the on the side of the out of the building and just exited the tradesman's alley and that was it. I didn't turn back, wow.

Carissa Galloway: 17:26

Well, I mean that does make sense how this set you up for training for these longer, more grueling events. I mean your first one. You know you probably didn't have the best shoes, you probably weren't covered in bodyglide, you know you didn't have those aid stations. So the 30 miles grew and grew and grew to ultra marathons. As you were doing that, did you have training plans you were following, or were you kind of inventing your own training regimen?

Dean Karnazes: 17:52

I mean you have to understand that the running is a very broad topic, right? I mean there's everything from sprinting to, you know, to 10,000 meters, to half marathons and marathons. What I do is so different than what most runners think of as running. I mean, you know, running 100 miles through the wilderness by yourself is not typically something people equate with running. It's more of an adventure.

Dean Karnazes: 18:18

So I had no idea what I was doing. I was running in, I was a surfer, I was running in board shorts, I had no idea what a training block was. I mean, I was so naive and it was beautiful, it was just beautiful. I remember I thought, after running 30 miles, you know I was a really fit guy. So I'm, I'm, you know, running every day out to the Golden Gate Bridge, you know, maybe five or six miles right, passing people the whole time, like I'm really strong. And then I was running home one day and living in San Francisco. When you run home, you're inevitably running up a hill somewhere or the other crazy hill, like hills that I'm in a car like, well, it's gonna happen.

Carissa Galloway: 18:59

Hill doesn't do it service.

John Pelkey: 19:00

It's, you know, yeah, pre mountain, I guess is what I'm gonna call it. Yeah.

Dean Karnazes: 19:06

Yeah, I mean so I'm, I'm powering up this hill and two guys blow past me as though I'm standing still. I mean they were like another species and and I'm like what, what was that? And I really wanted to talk with them because I had no, no one to talk with about my running. I was, you know, just kind of doing it on my own and I thought I'd really love to see what these guys are about and how they train and so forth. But they just blew past me, crested the hill and we're gone, and I thought, oh shit, you know, there's no way I was keeping up with them. So I eventually get to the top of the hill and there are those two guys and now they're, they're doing pushups and I'm like, all right, I'm talking to them and I said, hey, you guys, you know what's going on. They're like hey, I said are you, are you trained for something? Like yes, I said are there? There are hills involved? And they said, no, there are mountains involved. I go, shit, okay. And then they both stop their pushups and they get to their feet. I'm like so tell me about this race. And they said it's called the Slayer 50, the Slayer Mountain 50. I'm like huh, 50, like what? And they said 50 miles, dude, like it's, it's a 50 mile race. And I said hold it. You know are there campgrounds along the way? Or you know are there hotels? Like you know where do you stop? And the guy's like dude, the gun goes off and you start running. You stop when you cross the finish line and his buddy kind of elbowed him, like if you cross the finish line, and they looked at me like this guy's such a joker, there's no way he ever crossed the finish line and off they ran. So you know, this is an era, pre-internet.

Dean Karnazes: 20:45

I remember going to the San Francisco library using the Dewey Despo system and I looked up this race and I signed up for this race and it was the craziest thing I'd ever done. I mean, it hurt so bad to run 50 continuous miles. It was. It was every cell in my body just radiated pain. But I finished and I remember I was, you know, in the in the tent afterward, kind of in this Mylar blanket, shivering. You know, salt crust all over me and you know, just gone and dehydrated.

Dean Karnazes: 21:18

And I see those same two guys and they're high fiving each other. They're saying we qualified, we qualified? And I'm thinking for what the insane asylum? Like what do you qualify for? They said no, we qualified for the Western States 100 mile endurance run. And I said what? Twice that? As far as we just went.

Dean Karnazes: 21:37

Like how do you do this? How long do you have to do this? And the guy's like oh, you try to do it in 24 hours. And I said do you stop? He's like no, no, I said well, how do you see? He said you put it on a headlamp. I said when do you eat? He said while you run. And he said it starts at the base of a ski resort, it goes to the highest mountain and then you run 95 miles through the wilderness, you cross rivers in the middle of the night and I just I couldn't wrap my head around this idea of a human being able to run 100 miles on their own in the wilderness. And the last thing they said to me as they were walking out of the tent is hey, buddy, you qualified as well.

Carissa Galloway: 22:16

Yes.

Dean Karnazes: 22:17

Unbelievable. And when they said that to me, I mean my spine tingled. I thought I knew at that moment you have to do this race Like you will never live down this moment for the rest of your life. Unless you do this race you will forever think could I have done it? You know, was it possible? Yeah, so I signed up for the Western States 100 mile endurance run the next year and the rest, as they say, is history. That was 1994.

John Pelkey: 22:44

That's just your story's crazy because it's one epiphany after the other for you. You know, most of us are lucky if we find one in our lifetime and they're just like falling like dominoes for you. I wanna ask you a question and we'll talk a little bit more about once you got into this and you were training for specific events. But I saw an interview with you where you said something which I thought was really really interesting in that when you are, when you're in a zone, so to speak, in mindset, you are completely clearing everything out except the next step. And I know a lot of people when they're out training or they're running and I've done this myself you know you're thinking about the next signpost, the next water stop. You know something like that. You said it is completely different. You break it down into just being in that next step. What is that? What is that like? And is that, as always, how it's been for you? Because you also talk very eloquently about viewing your surroundings and being aware of the surroundings you're running in?

Dean Karnazes: 23:48

Yeah, I mean, I think people say you know, what do you think about when things get really tough? And I think thinking is the problem. When things get really tough, I try to turn off the mind, I try not to think about what's in front of me, I try not to reflect on the past at all but just focus on one thing taking my next footstep to the best of my ability and my next footstep to the best of my. And if you know, our minds are active, right, it's really hard to quiet the mind. Even now, while we're doing this interview, you know your mind is thinking about a million things at once.

Dean Karnazes: 24:23

I force my mind not to think about anything but my next footstep. And this is when things are really dark, when you're thinking I'm gonna DNF if I don't focus. And I've just, you know, john, I've just analyzed where my head goes when things get really tough. Yes, I love being in nature. Yes, I celebrate running 100 miles just, and I enjoy it just as much now as I did the first time I did it. But when things get really tough, that's what I focus on is just my next footstep.

John Pelkey: 24:56

Yes, that's really remarkable to me because, again, just running and I know a lot of distance runners and it really is you just have these signposts along the way and keep going. It's interesting to me. All right, listen. I wanna ask you about one of the things that I mentioned, because you just have so many, so many great credits of things you've done athletically, but once, as mentioned, 350 miles in 80 hours and 44 minutes without sleep. Now this goes beyond training to run a distance. This is also a sleep deprivation thing. So, going into something like that, how do you prepare for that? Did you just pull 80 hours straight up to see what that part of it was like? Was it tequila?

Dean Karnazes: 25:35

Was it tequila once you get involved, no, I mean that was just a mindless schlep, is what it was. I've never been a good sleeper, thank goodness, and that's kind of played into my ultramarathoning abilities. But yeah, I mean that was just mind over miles and relentless forward progress and honestly I thought I could run 500 miles. So I was kind of disappointed and I still believe a human can and will run 500 continuous miles. It's not me. But I was sleep, running and waking up rejuvenated. So if someone really really wants to go further, they can train their body to do it.

Dean Karnazes: 26:20

In fact, after they run, a guy contacted me who said hey, you weren't actually asleep, you were in this transcendental like a meditative state, and he said I can tell you more. So it kind of piqued my interest and I contact this would be an email. I contacted the guy. I said yeah, I used to be the personal trainer of Bruce Lee and I can train you how to fall asleep while you're running and wake up rejuvenated, like this canotonic state. You can run in for a while and your body will get a sleep cycle and you can wake up and keep going. Wow, and I stopped no, no, no, no, no. I stopped returning his emails and like there's no way. I want to learn how to do this. I mean, you're gonna die at a point, right?

John Pelkey: 27:08

It's just so. It is so, though illustrative. Have you talked about someone will eventually get there, and it's as much mental as physical for somebody to eventually get there, just crazy.

Carissa Galloway: 27:17

I have a no, we're gonna go on a different direction. But I'm just wondering, when you're doing this 80 hours in a row maybe catatonic, maybe not what sort of paces were you maintaining then?

Dean Karnazes: 27:29

Yeah, that's a good question and it just it so varies when you're doing this sort of thing. I mean, your energy cycles ebb and flow, so at points you might be running sub seven minute miles and it might feel comfortable, and this is after 200 miles. At other points, just walking is at a 20 mile pace, a really slow pace. It's a 15 minute mile kind of pace. It feels horrible. So there's not a consistent pace throughout, something like that.

Carissa Galloway: 28:04

No, it's been.

Dean Karnazes: 28:05

I know like where I went, yeah, go ahead. So I ran 50 marathons in 50 states in 50 days one time and I know the average finish time was I think it was three it's in my book but I think it was three hours and 44 minutes.

Carissa Galloway: 28:20

That's fine. That's faster than my PR of one marathon, but that's fine.

John Pelkey: 28:23

I'm not like embarrassed by myself, just kidding, I couldn't go 26 miles on a golf cart in that time. The battery would die.

Dean Karnazes: 28:31

No, I mean that was over 50 marathons, so you know that's kind of.

Carissa Galloway: 28:36

Well, along that line, there is a theory about you that you have the lactate dehydrinase syndrome, which means you don't produce lactic acid during exercise. What do you think about that?

Dean Karnazes: 28:48

I think to an extent that's the case, but I also will preface that by saying that any endurance athlete is gonna have the same phenomenon. It's. I don't. I don't think I'm unique. I mean the scientists.

Carissa Galloway: 28:58

Oh no, you are unique, I think. I think we've established that.

Dean Karnazes: 29:04

I mean, my mother comes from an island called Iqariya. I think I said I'm a hundred percent Greek and Iqariya is the place where Icarus you know the guy. I'm a fan of his and it's one of the blue blue zone. I know if you guys heard of the blue zones.

Dean Karnazes: 29:19

Yes it's like the place where the indigenous people live to be the longest. Yeah, iqariya has the highest concentration of what they call centenarians on earth, so the highest concentration of people that live to be a hundred or greater. The first time I visited this island, I went to a memorial service, for I think it was like a great uncle of mine and they said it was so sad His his death. And I said why? And I said well, he was only 96, why do you say? And they said if someone doesn't live to be a hundred in Iqariya, it's like a premature death. It's really sad.

John Pelkey: 29:55

That's crazy. I can't wrap my I just can't wrap my head around it.

Carissa Galloway: 29:58

Well, we should all you know, as we are. We are studying the blue zones. We're studying these things. Something we also mentioned in your bio in the beginning was was writing. You are a best-selling author. Are there parallels to you between writing and distance running?

Dean Karnazes: 30:13

Absolutely, chris. I mean I think, as you said, the lessons you learn from running carry over to life. You know, writing is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration. You know, you, you spent a lot of time Wordcrafting one sentence to get it right. I mean literally in playing scenarios Over and over in your head, and I love it.

Dean Karnazes: 30:35

I love the pursuit and I do a lot of my writing while I'm running. You guys probably know we have some of our clearest thoughts while we're running. So I I just do voice dictation and you know people say that when they read my books, one of the most frequent comments I get is like God, I thought I felt like I was right with you during I would explain these stories. Yeah, and I think that's because I'm writing a lot while I'm running and I think you know, if you're a writer and you're listening to this, what is so important when you're telling a story is to engage all of the senses. And when you're out running an ultramarathon, you do that. You know you get the smells, you get the sights, you get the feels, all of it that you, you know you hear different noises.

John Pelkey: 31:17

So I try to incorporate all of that into my writing to really put the reader in my shoes you are the Exception to the rule that I think F Scott Fitzgerald said most real writers spend more time coming up with reasons not to write than to write, and You're exactly the opposite of that best-selling author who uses his time as Best as anyone could possibly use their time. All right, as we don't want to keep you too too long, but a couple of things we do want to cover here. Of all the events, I wanted to say races, but you you've done event stuff. They're not even there, go beyond races. All the things that you've done. Do you have a favorite? Is there one memory where you go that that it is the the best thing I've ever done? I feel best about that.

Dean Karnazes: 32:04

Yeah, I know I do, and it's very clear to me and I will say that I've run on all seven continents twice. So I mean I've raced all around the world. As you mentioned, I ran a marathon in the South Pole, I've run across Death Valley, I've run across all the great deserts Go be at a comma Sahara but my, my most, my proudest accomplishment is running a 10k, and you're probably wondering, you know why a 10k? And I ran a 10k with my daughter, alexandria, under 10th birthday. Oh and yeah, I mean that nothing will ever surpass that moment. For me, that's that's cool.

John Pelkey: 32:39

So then the follow-up is do you have a least favorite thing that you've done and explain why it's 24 hours straight on a treadmill? Because to me and I do most of my and I'm not really much I did my first 5k recently. I tried to stay somewhat in shape, doing a couple miles by my distance runner, but I do a lot of it on a treadmill because I live in Central Florida and I don't know if you know this Dean, but it's uncomfortable.

Carissa Galloway: 33:02

He's also running Death Valley, so he's not. Yes, yes, no, sympathy for you. That's a dry heat.

Dean Karnazes: 33:06

Dean, it's a dry heat.

John Pelkey: 33:08

But the idea of 24 hours straight on a treadmill. I got to two hours once and wanted to then walk into traffic. What, what was that?

Dean Karnazes: 33:19

It was a fun, it was a fundraiser, but I mean 24 hours on a treadmill. It doesn't even tell half the story that the treadmill Was hoisted on this, on this, this platform Into the sky like two stories in the sky in the middle of time square on summer solstice. So you guys know what time square is like. Oh yeah, it's crazy. And here's this like treadmill that's hoisted up in the sky In the middle of time square and there's a guy running on it for 24 hours.

Carissa Galloway: 33:49

Okay, that actually sounds awesome to me.

Dean Karnazes: 33:54

All the jumbo trons were filming me.

Carissa Galloway: 33:56

Oh, that's all, the all of the oh it was.

Dean Karnazes: 33:58

It was Maintaining my focus for 24 hours was with such a head trip.

Carissa Galloway: 34:03

I have to follow-ups for this that I feel are.

Dean Karnazes: 34:07

Or just I want to hear them, yeah, well one.

Carissa Galloway: 34:09

Did you get restroom breaks? Oh, because you're up high.

Dean Karnazes: 34:17

On this treadmill was a treadmill, was it was like a little. You know those camping toilets, yeah, porta-potties where you gotta sit down.

Carissa Galloway: 34:25

I mean they're on the go there.

Dean Karnazes: 34:27

So I had this. Behind the treadmill is this camping toilet and there's this circular umbrella Like a drawstring, and I'd have to sit down a matter of how to go big potty or little potty and pull up on this drawstring. It would bring up this circular like I'm you know shower curtain around me. Yes, so I could go to the bathroom.

Carissa Galloway: 34:47

Who was it? There was. There was somebody as they were designing this. Was it you? Or was like he's got to go to the bathroom? What are we gonna do? I'll the shower curtain like was there? You know? Do you remember conversations about this? I?

Dean Karnazes: 34:57

Mean no.

Carissa Galloway: 34:57

I'm just there, yeah, and.

Dean Karnazes: 35:00

I'm like how many go to the bathroom and they're like, oh, you will have something for you. Like, where's all my food and water gonna be? We'll have something for you. So they had it all planned out. But you know I did my best to maintain my decency throughout 24 hours, like I would sit down on this damn toilet and hoist this thing up, and when you're drinking so much liquid, I mean, it's summer solstice, which is hot. Yeah, it is yeah.

Carissa Galloway: 35:21

All right. So did you have a view of Times Square? Because when we go to we take my daughter she's been twice to New York, she's eight her favorite thing to do is to go to Times Square and see what she calls the creepy people. That like not Mickey Mouse and not Minnie Mouse. Could you see any of the activity of Times Square? Was it amusing to you, like was like a bird's-eye view? I just want to know.

Dean Karnazes: 35:42

It was crazy. It was everything Times Square is. There was crazy people, and the craziest, I think, is that this, this, I don't know, this clan, like this cult of Harry Krieshna's oh yeah, started work. They started worshiping me. They set up their mats below me and they were saying, as I'm running, I'm looking down at all these Harry Krieshna's doing these chants, you know, moving their heads up and down, looking up. Yeah, no, it was great.

John Pelkey: 36:11

I mean it was you achieve deity status, dean, and you and you're, and you're Greek. I mean, honestly, I could not put this in a screenplay. This couldn't be a screenplay. It has to be like a limited mini series, because there's just so much going on and you led me. You led me into this one to Dean, because we're gonna ask this a little later for an opportunity. Better ask it now. The 50 marathons in 50 days, the distance you're running, not withstanding Logistically, because you're not running. You know you're. I'm sure you ran and I know you ran some existing marathons on the weekends, but obviously there's generally not a marathon in Wyoming on Wednesday. How do you put? How did you put that together?

Dean Karnazes: 36:51

I can barely draw my name in the dirt with a stick. I didn't put it together. I mean, I Worked with the, the agency that coordinates the Olympic torch run across the country, and they did all the logistics. So you're right, eight of the the marathons were what they were calling live marathons. So on the day of the actual marathon, like I ran the, the, the Chicago marathon, on race day, I ran the Marine Corps marathon and race day, you know, with thousands of other people, I ran Portland on race day and the final marathon was was New York City on race day.

Dean Karnazes: 37:26

But the 42 other marathons were quote-unquote recreated Marathon. So they contacted the race director for the most prominent marathon in that state and said hey, when we show up on a random Tuesday In Iowa, will you set up your marathon, start, let us follow your sanction and certified course and finish at your finish line, so that we had a record of actually completing a marathon, sanction marathon. And that's how we did 42 of them, unlike a regular marathon on race day where they hold the entire course closed. Yeah, we had like a roaming police escort. That would you know. Because I say we, because I, this agency got permits for up to 50 runners to join me at each of these marathons, so you could go on. It was active combat then, and just sign up to run a marathon with Dean and in Dallas, texas, on a random Thursday. But the police escort would like move us through intersection closing intersections. We ran through so they didn't have to close the entire course that we just had this roaming pod Of road closures and that's how we pulled it off.

Carissa Galloway: 38:30

Um, that sounds amazing. If you want to do it again, I would. I would sign up and run one of a couple of them with you. So just think about it if you want to very serious, are you serious? Oh, I don't. Oh, of course, yeah, my husband would. Jeff John would do some announced one he would be announced, I would. That sounds amazing. I'd be on the support team.

Dean Karnazes: 38:45

Yeah, I mean we had. So it was the ultimate road trip. I mean we had these big buses. It was, it was a, it was really a lot of fun, yeah, and so fun.

Carissa Galloway: 38:54

I mean in using the in-six existing infrastructure, the races. That's just brilliant to me, because I'm just visualizing the Des Moines marathon. You know I'm busy. Oh, okay, this makes perfect sense to me. I'm not Really.

Dean Karnazes: 39:06

Yeah, I mean even you know Dave McGillvery from Boston.

Dean Karnazes: 39:08

Yeah ran Boston in October with the leaves changing color. You know Boston is always the second week. You know it's tax day, yep, patriots day, which is always in April. We ran it with the leaves changing colors and people are like a lot of the people because we did. We had permits for actually 50 people to join me on each of the marathons and some people ran multiple, like a couple ran what they called the six pack, so they ran all six marathons in the New England States. But yeah, jeff I mean Dave McGillvery actually like painted the street With the Boston marathon finishing. You know they do the flag across the ribbon across the screen painted it.

Dean Karnazes: 39:46

So the race directors were really supportive and, and To your point, an agency recently contacted me and said hey, you want to do a 20 year anniversary.

John Pelkey: 39:55

Oh yeah, which is 2026, so I.

Carissa Galloway: 40:00

Mean I'm just gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do a little, you know, inspiration brainstorm. You could start at Disney World this time, because last time you started at Disneyland, right well, I've done a lot of shit in my life.

Dean Karnazes: 40:16

I'm confused, so I ran across America okay, that's different, I ran three. That was 3000 miles from from Disneyland to New York. But the the 50 marathons and 50 states In 50 days started with the Lewis and Clark marathon and St Louis Missouri. Because it was the bicentennial of the Lewis and Clark expedition the year I started, which was 2006, so that was the first marathon is the Lewis and Clark in St Louis Missouri.

John Pelkey: 40:43

I love these history tie-ins. I love the history tie-ins to this. Now John's on board.

Carissa Galloway: 40:47

This story's gonna run the marathon for Lewis and Clark.

John Pelkey: 40:50

Not gonna know, I'm not gonna run the marathon to go, that would, that would not be possible, but I Just, I love all the synchronicity. How this.

Carissa Galloway: 40:58

Well, the invitation is open to start your next 50 marathon, 70 states, at the Walt Disney World Marathon in January of any year. But let's talk about the Disney connection that you have to Disneyland and that event that you completed.

Dean Karnazes: 41:13

Yeah, so I mean the run across America was for a TV show called live with Regis and Kelly yes, we just.

Carissa Galloway: 41:18

You know little TV show.

Dean Karnazes: 41:20

Yeah, a rest in peace. He's since passed away, but they felt either. They were filming me every day for 75 days, running from the West Coast to their studio in New York City, and they're affiliated with Disney because Disney owns the network. So they, they set up the start at Disneyland. Literally, we started at in the middle of Disneyland with this fire, literally a firework display, the, the Goodyear blimp flying over ahead saying you know, good luck, dean, on your run across America, and they and 500 people they chose 500 people from the audience to come join me who are runners, so they had this like lottery for a few months before they actually started and they flew 500 people out To the West Coast and we all ran, literally ran, through Disneyland with no, with no one there. This is before the park opened. And then I ran out the gate and everyone wave goodbye and and I banged a right and 3000 miles to New York.

John Pelkey: 42:21

Yeah, well, you know it's one of the with our run Disney races. One of the Favorite things of people who run the marathon is getting to run through the Magic Kingdom when now there are other runners there, but you know, with the lights on and Not crowd streets crowded and everything and there's Christmas lights in January yeah, christmas lights, so it's really up, which is a favorite for me.

Carissa Galloway: 42:42

And then there are some people there you're cheering me sure. Usa is what's one of the highlights, so it's great that you got to kind of experience, of course, the Dean version.

John Pelkey: 42:49

That's right. That's right. There's a Dean version to it. All right now, dean. In addition to all of this, I don't think we've talked about you being Greek, you, you. You've recently been named A ambassador for Greek tourism. Now, what does that entail, and how did that all come about?

Dean Karnazes: 43:06

It's. It's a tough assignment, but someone has sounds like it, yet you need an assistant. Well, now that I know your love of history, we could do an entire podcast just on Greek history. Let's go. Yeah, no, I studied classics. I don't know if you know that.

John Pelkey: 43:21

Oh, I didn't know, I was an English major, so we're kind of cousins.

Dean Karnazes: 43:26

Dean is not even my name. I don't know how I got the name Dean. I'll be honest my my, on my birth certificate, on my passport, on my driver's license it's Constantine. So my real name is Constantine. I don't. I don't for the life of me. I think it was, must have been.

John Pelkey: 43:39

When I was a kid I got this nickname of Dean and it just stuck now, generally these things happen because someone in your family was young and unable to pronounce your name. Because I have an aunt who's aunt, mimi, am I, am I, and it was because they said she was small like Minnie Mouse. But I had a cousin who couldn't pronounce that. So I'm gonna go with. You've got a cousin somewhere, dean, that couldn't say when they'd heard Constantine, it was just Dean, that's it.

Dean Karnazes: 44:05

Yeah, so no, it's Constantine, and you know the. The marathon started in Greece and I could bore you senselessly. I know the history, I know every footstep of PD, pd's and Jeff and I you know I've dealt Jeff. Jeff knows my passion and I've written a book called the road to Sparta, which is about the original marathon. If any of the you listeners want to know the origins of the marathon from 490 BC until modern 2023, the road to Sparta explains it and the, the actual first marathon was was more of an ultra marathon. I'll say that that the runner who died Supposedly died at the Acropolis after proclaiming the key. The key or Nike, nike, which means victory, victory, we are victorious. He had run much further than 26.2 before he collapsed. He ran an ultra marathon to recruit the Spartans in the battle and then ran back to the, the battlefield of marathon.

Dean Karnazes: 45:01

But Marathon is a place in Greece and Marathon means field of fennel, because when the Persians landed at this place on the coastline of Greece, there was a lot of wild fennel growing, which grows wild all over over Greece, so that the origins of the word marathon or field of fennel. It's a. It's a fascinating story and to go to marathon and see it and See that nothing has changed in 2,500 years. It's still this open Beach field and there's a little like hand-drawn placard that says here was the battle of marathon. And it's crazy.

Dean Karnazes: 45:42

But the like runners from around the world don't all go there to see this place, because it's the origins of what you're doing and it gives so much Deeper meaning to running a marathon to know the historic origins of the thing you're doing. There's no other sporting event that has such an illustrious history that created what you're doing. So I encourage people to visit Greece. I also started this company called Greek Running Tours and we take people to Greece for experiencing Greece on foot. So it's not competitive running, it's 10K to. I think the longest day is 18K over many hours of sightseeing and tasting food, cultural experiences. But if you're inclined, come join us at Greek Running Tours and you'll learn all about the origins of this thing. That means so much to you. Completing a marathon in the place that it actually originated that's such a great idea.

Carissa Galloway: 46:41

No, I've learned a lot about marathon from Jeff, but I did not know the field of fennel. I didn't know that, and my daughter loves to eat fennel, so I'm excited.

John Pelkey: 46:50

Now. You'll never forget it, she's close to a marathoner.

Carissa Galloway: 46:52

She eats a lot of fennel. She's building her base. My daughter has done more 5Ks than John Pelkin.

John Pelkey: 46:58

And she beat me in the one that I ran. She would run alongside me for a while and then speed up to try to get me to speed up, and eventually by mile three I'm like go on without me.

Carissa Galloway: 47:07

My dinges are coming out. They're made of wood. We have a question that we ask everybody at the close, and I'm going to give you the question, but I'm also going to preface it, because the question is you know what's the most inspiring thing you've seen at a race or an event? But for some people you might be the most inspiring thing or something that inspires them. So what is then and you can say yourself the most inspiring thing that you've seen at a running event?

Dean Karnazes: 47:43

God. I mean, we've seen so much, haven't we? I mean, personally, it's the back of Packers. I just I love seeing people coming in before the you know, before the cutoff and just barely making it and watching how they're just transformed by the experience. So I would say, you know it's kind of a general answer that you know watching the medal being placed and I've done this I've placed a finishing medal over people's necks that have finished with just a couple of minutes before the cutoff, and it is, yeah, it's otherworldly to see that look in their eyes of complete exhaustion but complete elation and bliss as well at the same time.

Carissa Galloway: 48:28

Yeah, I mean, not many people can in the way you can empathize and understand what that feels like to just push and pull everything out of yourself. I think you truly have done that in extreme situations and you can connect with people on that way, just knowing what it meant to them and what they might have had to go through to get to that moment.

Dean Karnazes: 48:48

I mean, you're so right, and for some people that's just getting to the finish line of a 10K. You know to me that they might feel the same way that it took me to finish the Badwater Ultra Marathon. They might be that to well, maybe not that destroyed, hopefully. Hopefully, all their toenails are still on.

Carissa Galloway: 49:03

Hopefully they're taking their walkers.

John Pelkey: 49:07

Right, well, listen, I'm saying yeah, yeah, dean. There's just so much for people. Your story is so great and so much as I mentioned five books out there. If people want to follow you, they want to find out more about Dean Karnassus. Where do they go to do that?

Dean Karnazes: 49:22

Google a good thing. Google, yeah, yeah. No, I mean I'm on social media. You know, I have a website you can find. I'm not hard to find, no, and you're a bit of an overachiever there.

John Pelkey: 49:34

Dean Gotta say bit of an overachiever.

Dean Karnazes: 49:37

I you know it's, it's. It's not the medals, it's not the accolades, it's not the trophies, it's the journey.

John Pelkey: 49:43

Yeah.

Dean Karnazes: 49:44

And I'm committed to this whole life of mine. I mean, you know, jeff Galloway is, I've got to say, a great, great mentor and hero of mine. Just because you know, I can relate to him. He it's, it's kind of frustrating watching your, you know, to be able to to crack a three hour marathon for this kid these days would be Hercules Leon. I mean, I'd have to work so hard and it's still doubtful. I can even do it where it used to come easy, and and and, living with grace, knowing that you know, you just, you're just not what you once were, but you're still committed to being the best that you can, given the stage of life you're in. I'll end it with just a thing you know, jeff Galloway, you hung the moon.

Carissa Galloway: 50:29

That's very, very sweet, and his son is listening now as well. Dean, this has been so, so much fun. And we're so thankful that you spent the time to be with us and to chat with our three two one go listeners, and we are anxiously awaiting the announcement of how we can join in in 2026 on some of those 50 marathons. Don't, don't you forget us when you're on the record, Carissa.

Dean Karnazes: 50:50

I'm excited.

Carissa Galloway: 50:51

I'm ready.

John Pelkey: 50:51

I've got some states to knock off yeah hopefully we'll have a chance to do this again, dean, because I know we have so much more to talk about, but thanks for spending some time with us, you guys know.

Dean Karnazes: 51:00

thank you for your time. You're a wonderful host. I talked your ear off so you won't have to, and it's been really lovely. I really enjoyed our conversation.

John Pelkey: 51:09

Thanks, appreciate it, take care.

Carissa Galloway: 51:18

Here's something that we've all tried to do. I don't there may be just a minuscule handful of people out there that at one point in their life John having said I'm going to try to lose weight Do you agree, I completely agree.

Carissa Galloway: 51:29

And I think even now whether it's to for more energy or for better health a lot of that, as we're learning more about nutrition and certain diseases things revolves around. If you can get to a healthy weight, you will reduce your risk of certain diseases like type one diabetes, heart disease and things like that. So weight loss is something that a lot of us have thought about doing, trying to doing and a lot of us have failed at. So, as a dietitian, what I see is that when people try weight loss and maybe they have success, and then they stop and weight comes back, it increases their fear of trying again and it creates negative connections with food and all these kinds of things. So, as a dietitian, when I look at weight loss to people, I don't look at you're going to lose weight and here's how you're going to do it, because weight loss is actually really hard. Would you agree with that?

John Pelkey: 52:16

Oh, 100%, and it can kind of mess with your mind right. I've tried and failed numerous times.

Carissa Galloway: 52:21

I remember you with a bag of carrots and celery on the court at the old spice classic.

John Pelkey: 52:26

Yes, that's when that's all I was eating and I would go to lunch somewhere and I'd pull that bag out and make sad faces and watch people eat, and it didn't last long term.

Carissa Galloway: 52:35

Delicious food.

John Pelkey: 52:36

I lost. I actually lost like 22 pounds in 10 weeks and then it took me about a year and a half to put it all back on generally. But it's it. I'm a little lazy, but it did.

Carissa Galloway: 52:47

But a lot of us do. They yell you that. So the number one reason why weight loss is hard and this is specifically, unfortunately, more for women but as we age our basal metabolic rate slows down, meaning what we could eat at 20, at 30, at 40, at 49. As we get into the 50s and 60s it starts to dramatically decrease. So we've got to shift how we've always been eating our entire life. Then for women, when you add in menopause, that's just an unfortunate formula that makes it so much harder to keep and maintain weight off.

Carissa Galloway: 53:17

So I think if we acknowledge that that plays a huge part in it, then weight loss can be easier. If we acknowledge it's hard, we acknowledge that we failed before and that we don't look at it as weight loss, but we look at it as I'm going to make better nutrition choices so that when you come to work and all you have is a bag of carrots, you might think, well, if I put some protein with this, or it would be okay if I had 12 whole grain crackers, because then I'm going to feel more satisfied and I'm not going to get home and either one binge or two, just argue with myself about why I can't eat. So I think that weight loss is hard, but if we stop thinking about it as weight loss and thinking about it as nutrition education, nutrition education and improving the quality of our diet, the weight loss will naturally happen. Do you think that's possible?

John Pelkey: 54:02

I do think that's possible, and if you also throw exercise in there, because so many people try to lose weight simply by addressing their diet and there's nothing wrong with addressing your diet and you should, but if you don't move along with it, you're going to have limited success.

Carissa Galloway: 54:17

So kind of what we were taught in school is that weight loss is about 80% your food choices and then, once you get to your goal weight, that's when exercise becomes key into maintenance. But the same thing I said about you know you're going to struggle to lose weight if you're only afraid of calories and afraid of gaining weight. Think about that principle to exercise too. If you only run because I've got to burn X amount of calories or exercise for those reasons, you're not going to stick with it. If you get some of those benefits like Dean said, of the mental benefits of seeing the world around, you, have clear thinking, then you're going to be motivated to exercise for another reason, just like you're going to be motivated to eat better for a reason that's outside of weight loss. So my point of that ramble is weight loss is really hard. If it's something you want to do, don't be scared to try again, but shift your mindset. And that is essentially kind of what we do in healthier you is. We do a little bit of calorie counting in the beginning just because you have to know where you are. Like you have to do a magic mile with Jeff to know how to do your run, walk breaks. We get you there. But then we stop worrying about the scale and we start thinking about the quality of our diet and the makeup and in that process a lot of people do see the weight loss. So that's kind of my spiel for today, that if you're in that weight loss journey I know it's hard, we support you, it's okay to take a pause and come back to it, but avoid those restrictive diets. They won't get you there.

Carissa Galloway: 55:30

And if you want to join the 12-week course, if you want to join a more nutrition education based program, go to gallowaycoursecom. That's where my healthier you course is and you can use the code podcast save $150. It also has its own exclusive group in the Galloway Training Hub where you can chat with other members, share your successes, share your frustrations, just but just be with a group of like-minded people who have their goal on improving that only one healthier you. This is the end of the episode, but we want to hear from you. If you have tips for anyone doing their first dopey challenge or a Rundisney first timer, email us. We may feature and discuss your tips in a future episode. And if you've got a Rundisney story or any story or you want to talk about what hotels are really close to races that John and I could stay at and announce. Email us 321gopodcastatgmailcom. That was an awesome episode.

John Pelkey: 56:22

Great stuff, thank you guys for listening. We'll talk to you next time. Bye, bye.